In this interesting conversation, we sit down with Dr. Johnny Drain, co-founder of Win Win (formerly WNWN Food Labs), to explore the intersection of science, storytelling, and sustainable innovation in the food industry.

At first glance, the path from computational science to food innovation might seem unusual. As Drain explains, "my career has definitely been unconventional and unorthodox. And I'm disinclined even to call it a career because it's sort of jerk between so many different poles, but essentially I still define myself probably more than any other thing as a scientist." His academic background includes an undergrad degree in chemistry and then a master's degree in nanomaterials followed by a PhD in computational material science.

His scientific expertise opened doors in the culinary world, where Johnny "would get dropped in as this kind of science boffin" at prestigious establishments. His work with "the Nordic food lab, which is part of Noma, one of the world's best restaurants" marked the beginning of a transformation. Working with businesses ranging from "small mom and pop places up to big multinationals," Drain discovered he "had become at least in part a storyteller."

The inspiration for Win Win came unexpectedly. As Drain recalls, "I was back in my parents' house and there wasn't a lot in the larder and I'd boiled these potatoes and I leant over this pan of bubbling water which had got these slightly gnarly green potatoes in and it smelled like hot chocolate. And I had this eureka moment of like, does chocolate taste like chocolate?"

This curiosity led to a deeper mission facing the industry’s challenges. As Drain discovered, "within most of the world's chocolate that you would eat, if you walk into any supermarket in Britain, in Bangladesh, in Uruguay, wherever, most of that chocolate, about two thirds of the world's cocoa comes from two countries in West Africa and it's produced in ways that involves child slavery, slave labor, massive deforestation."

The journey of building Win Win included an important lesson about branding and communication. The company's original name presented unexpected challenges: "We would spend probably 50% of our time doing podcasts or giving talks at these sort of food tech symposiums. Half of the time I would be introduced as Dr. Johnny Drain from WNWN and you'd have to stand up with a mic and say it's pronounced Win-Win Food Labs."

Drain's academic background gave him unique insight into the importance of accessible communication. Having worked in a very academic setting where speaking overlay technically in a way that is alienating was seen as a badge of honour - Johnny recognised the need for change. His approach focused on moving away from this way of speaking, taking complex ideas and distilling them down to ways that they are easy to understand.

The timing of Win Win's launch coincided with significant industry changes. As Drain explains, "cocoa prices shot through the roof. They almost sort of tripled since 2020." The challenges extend beyond economics: "cocoa can only grow plus or minus 10 degrees of the equator" and in these regions, they're "getting floods and droughts in the same calendar year" along with "certain fungal diseases which haven't been seen before."

For entrepreneurs embarking on similar journeys, Drain emphasises the importance of early brand development: "starting as early as possible with brand work and thinking about these exercises of the personality wheels and just going as deep as possible, as early as possible, cannot be underestimated." He warns that "stopwatches are really bad for almost all forms of creativity."

He highlights how brand development involves everyone: "that's the brilliant thing, that everybody has an opinion." He compares it to pop music, noting that people will tell you "this is brilliant or that's rubbish or you should change that or that colour is horrible or what on earth are you thinking? The original one was better."

Drain's final advice draws from scientific tradition. He notes that "lots of those great physicists of the early 20th century were massive advocates for going for long walks after lunch" because "you just have to let this stuff trickle through the cogs of your brain and it does its thing and you get back to your office and boom, you've got the answer."

This blend of scientific rigour and creative thinking, coupled with a deep understanding of both technical innovation and human communication, exemplifies the unique approach that has made Win Win a pioneer in sustainable food innovation.

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